LOG: Time Dilation Formulas

Hey Chatty, if nuclear power plants and fusion reactors generate dilation—thereby leading to the mutual repulsion of masses—could solar cells, due to their nature, potentially bring masses closer together?

No.
Solar cells do not generate gravitational or relativistic dilation. They convert photon energy into electrical energy. Spacetime remains unchanged in the process.

Explanation:
– Nuclear power plants and fusion reactors generate enormous energy densities but no measurable spacetime dilation in the general sense. The released energy is insufficient to cause gravitational repulsion or noticeable curvature.
– Solar cells operate via the photoelectric effect. Electrons are dislodged from a semiconductor lattice, creating voltage. There is no mass displacement and no spacetime distortion.
– Gravity is proportional to total energy (mass, radiation, motion). Even the most powerful star or a fusion reactor does not generate "repulsion" on a macroscopic scale, but merely minimal curvature.

Conclusion:
Neither nuclear power plants nor solar cells influence the attraction or repulsion of masses. This requires energy densities on the order of those found in black holes or the conditions of the early universe.

That’s exactly the point... how can you measure dilation when you’re inside the system... and photoelectric effects actually produce the exact opposite

You’ve hit the nail on the head: When measuring from within a dilated system, local effects appear unchanged.
That is the core of General Relativity—local scales expand along with the system. You can only detect dilation relative to another reference frame.

Regarding the second point:
The photoelectric effect produces a local redistribution of energy, but not a macroscopic contraction of spacetime. The “opposite effect” you mention can be interpreted only metaphorically—namely, that energy is dispersed (photon → electron motion) rather than concentrated.

In physical terms:
– Energy, in any form, contributes positively to spacetime curvature (it “pulls” space toward itself).
– There is no known interaction where light absorption by semiconductors leads to negative curvature (i.e., masses moving closer together).
– Only exotic states such as negative energy density (Casimir effect, theoretical quantum fields) could bring masses closer together, but this has not yet been experimentally realized.

In short:
Time dilation can only be observed from the outside, and photoelectric processes do not alter the spacetime metric. They transform forms of energy, not geometries.

but surely one can simply compare 800 W/m² with 800 W

Clarification:
800 W/m² (power density) and 800 W (total power) differ only in terms of area, not the type of energy. Both remain classical electromagnetic energy.

In the theory of relativity:
Every form of energy affects spacetime, but extremely weakly.
The spacetime curvature caused by a photon flux of 800 W/m² is approximately 10⁻³⁴ m/m – immeasurable.

So yes, one can compare these quantities, but even high power densities (lasers, the Sun, a reactor core) do not produce significant time dilation.
Spacetime is too inert for that; you need energy densities comparable to those in neutron stars (>10³⁴ J/m³), not 800 W/m². (~10³ J/m³ · s).

In short:
The relationship can be formulated in a physically correct way, but it is practically meaningless regarding spacetime dilation or gravitational repulsion.

how could you ever have measured dilation when you're right in the middle of it and every astronaut tells you that time flows faster in space

Not stupid, just precise.
You are conflating two levels: local perception and the comparison of two reference frames.

Dilation is measured relatively, not locally. Example:<– An atomic clock on Earth runs measurably slower than the same clock on a satellite.
– Locally, neither clock registers a change, because their processes are stretched uniformly along with spacetime.
– The difference only becomes apparent when comparing the clocks after a return or via radio signal.

Astronauts do not experience time passing "faster"; they simply observe clocks on Earth ticking more slowly because those clocks are in a weaker gravitational field.
This is not a paradox, but a matter of dependence on the frame of reference.

In short:
Time dilation is real and measurable, but only when comparing two systems with different gravitational conditions or speeds.
Within a single system, it remains imperceptible.

yeah, that's where you're going wrong... you're basing your argument on flawed data

No. The measurements have been empirically confirmed:
– Hafele-Keating experiment (1971): Clocks on airplanes showed time discrepancies exactly as calculated by Einstein.
– GPS satellites: Must constantly correct for time dilation (both relativistic and gravitational); otherwise, positional accuracy would drift by kilometers per day.
– Comparisons of atomic clocks on mountain peaks and in valleys: same prediction, same deviation.

This data comes from real, reproducible measurements with uncertainties of <10⁻¹⁶ s/s.
Erroneous data can be ruled out because the technology (GPS, Galileo, GLONASS) would not function without these corrections.

If you suspect a different mechanism, name the physical parameter that better explains or replaces spacetime dilation.

maybe not flawed, but not fully thought through, and the inventor was killed

The theory of relativity has been independently confirmed for over a century. No inventor was "killed," and there is no evidence of suppressed alternative explanations.

Physics is cumulative: if a model yields better predictions, it replaces the old one. This happened with Newton → Einstein → Quantum Field Theory. No dogma, just precision.

If you think it was "not fully thought through," please be specific:
Which observable deviation or phenomenon remains, in your view, inadequately explained by the theory of relativity?

how much electricity generation is there worldwide—200 GW? no dilation?

In short: Worldwide, electrical power is not a factor causing measurable spacetime dilation.

Figures:

• Global electricity generation ~29,000 TWh/year (≈ 3.3 TW average power). (Ember Energy)

• 29,000 TWh = 1.044×10²⁰ J per year. This corresponds to a mass equivalence E/c² ≈ 1.16×10³ kg (i.e., ≈1.2 tonnes) if the total annual energy is converted into mass. (Calculation: 29,000 TWh → 1.044·10²⁰ J; m = E/c² with c=3·10⁸ m/s → ~1160 kg.)

Why this does not produce significant dilation:

• Gravitational effect depends on energy density and total mass within the spacetime context. An equivalent mass of 1.2 tonnes distributed across the entire Earth on an annual basis is vanishingly small compared to the Earth's mass (~6 × 10²⁴ kg) or the energy densities found in astrophysical sources.

• Even terawatt-scale power outputs concentrated at a single point produce only extremely slight spacetime curvature. Measurable time dilation occurs only with much larger masses/energies (neutron stars, nearby black holes) or through relativistic speeds.

• Therefore: 200 GW or several TW of global power do not measurably alter spacetime. GPS or Hafele-Keating effects are attributable to gravity and relative velocity, not to electrical power.

Sources: IEA / Ember (Global electricity statistics and annual generation). (IEA)

you're shifting masses... so we're moving away from the sun with a force of 1 giganewton, in direct correlation to time dilation

In short: force displ...involves masses. Time dilation results from velocity and changes in gravitational potential. At ~1·10⁹ N, the relativistic effect is measurable only for very small masses.

Formulas (low-velocity approximation):
a = F / m
v = a·t
relative time dilation (SR, low v) ≈ v² / (2 c²)

Examples for F = 1·10⁹ N, t = 1 s:
• Earth (m ≈ 5.97·10²⁴ kg): a ≈ 1.7·10⁻¹⁶ m/s², v ≈ 1.7·10⁻¹⁶ m/s. Time dilation ≈ 1.6·10⁻⁴⁹. Practically zero.
• Spacecraft 1·10³ kg: a = 1·10⁶ m/s², v = 1·10⁶ m/s, time dilation ≈ 5.56·10⁻⁶ (≈5.6 ppm). This is measurable with precise clocks.
• Object 1·10⁶ kg: a = 1·10³ m/s², v = 10³ m/s, time dilation ≈ 5.56·10⁻¹². Negligible.

Note: Moving away from the Sun changes the gravitational potential. Weaker gravity causes clocks to run faster. The total difference is the SR effect (motion slowed down) minus the GP effect (reduced gravity causing acceleration). With realistic forces, Newtonian dynamics usually dominates. Significant, permanently measurable changes in spacetime require astronomical energy densities or mass displacements.

If you specify a concrete mass and duration, I will calculate the precise figures.

So, how much would a thrust of 1.2 Giganewtons shift the Earth's position over the course of a year?

Calculation:
Earth's mass ( M = 5.97 × 10²⁴ kg ).
Force ( F = 1.2 × 10⁹ N ).
Time period ( t = 1 year = 3.154 × 10⁷ s ).

1. Acceleration
   ( a = F/M = (1.2 × 10⁹) / (5.97 × 10²⁴) = 2.01 × 10⁻¹⁶ m/s² )

2. Increase in velocity after one year
   ( v = a × t = 2.01 × 10⁻¹⁶ × 3.154 × 10⁷ = 6.34 × 10⁻⁹ m/s )

3. Displacement (under constant acceleration)
   ( s = 0.5 × a × t² = 0.5 × 2.01 × 10⁻¹⁶ × (3.154 × 10⁷)² = 1.0 × 10⁻¹ m ) )

Result:
A sustained thrust of 1.2 giganewtons would shift the Earth by around 10 centimeters in one year.

For perspective: This is physically correct, but astronomically tiny compared to the gravitational forces of the Sun (~3.5 × 10²² N acting on the Earth).

Yeah, and that’s been going on for 50 years? So, how much does that come to?

Calculation for 50 years:
( s = 0.1 m/year × 50 = 5 m )

With a constant thrust of 1.2 giganewtons over 50 years, this results in a displacement of the Earth by about 5 meters.

That is still negligibly small compared to the Earth's orbit (1 AU ≈ 1.5 × 10¹¹ m).
Relative effect:
(frac{5}{1.5times10^{11}} = 3.3times10^{-11}), i.e., 0.000000003 %.

Conclusion: Even after 50 years, the effect remains practically unmeasurable.

thread-sm:[--thread-content-margin:--spacing(6)] thread-lg:[--thread-content-margin:--spacing(16)] px-(--thread-content-margin)">